I voted 'Yes - happy to focus on pure progression'. However, I would hope this does include killing an acceptable amount of bosses each week to keep gearing ourselves up etc. Whilst we are generally doing that now, it might change once we start progressing on heroics and the appeal of normals goes down.
Not voting because I think we should be aiming for something between the two. I think we're missing a trick not re-visiting the likes of Chogul that we have killed and adding some Tier Items.
Ofcourse gear is a requirement and makes it easier to progress. Seeing we're currently not far off and we basically wipe due to stupid mistakes, rather than gear, I'd aim for full progress.
The goal of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his.
<3 Shii
Whilst i ve voted for progression...I feel a balance is necessary...in reality i think we only have 3 or 4 farm bosses, further kills of the others remain progression ie cho'gall, council, atramedes
Baalz
Most of you voted down a 5th day, and you have seen what we have been doing in regards to progression focus.
With the limited raid hours we have, its a straight choice between the 2, you can't have it both ways.
Its either the current system of focusing on progression and getting a few kills on the side or clearing what we have done and getting progression over the long long term, because we dont' have the time to focus on new bosses (if we cleared all the bosses we have already killed each week, we would probably have time for 1 night a week, if that to look at a new boss).
As for being undergeared, that is clearly not true. The only gear you need for the content we are working on is items from 5man heroics. The reason we are wiping on bosses is because people messing up, not becasue of gear. Gear will help smooth over the cracks but won't solve them.
I have voted against it.. I will not like a raid week with "pure progression" although this is my personal main goal, I will not enjoy it if it was filling 3½ out of 4 raid evenings.
EDIT; After the question was changed to be what was really intended, my vote ofc changes to a yes, I would support the guild as it is currently progressing, I like the Vigi style, dont see any reason to change and try and push more (or less)
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
Thats not what we are doing shii. We are probably spending 2.5-3 on progress and rest on killing old bosses. I an asking if you guys are happy with how we are currently raiding.
I would ofcourse like us to continue focusing on the progress...but also kill the other bosses please.
I am guessing quite a few raiders including me on certain bosses have not killed or had enough practice to call them on farm bosses ---> Atramedes , the ascendant council Cho'gall.....etc
So it would be progess if all the raiders had practice..kills on these bosses?
please correct me if i am wrong
Well to call a boss a "farm boss" is in many ways a definetion of the word "progression".
Farmable bosses is bosses (in my opinion) we can go in and do and a large numbers(20+) of raiders are comftable in the fight and the mechanics. This is for example Magmaw or Omnitron. Just because we have killed a boss does not mean its on farm. (Go back and see with Sindragosa HC, in my opinion we never reeeeally got that on "farm").
Well this means we can go in, do a fight without wiping more than to "bad luck" (You can wipe on the easiets fights, so ofc. you can also wipe on farmable bosses).
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
2.5-3 days on progression means 2.5-3 days of non stop wiping, this will wear down even the most hardened raider. You really need a balance between mastering older stuff and getting practice out on new stuff. In the past Vigi used extended raids for new bosses (the sunday extended raids are a leftover from this). We did extended raids for new bosses and normal shorter ones for farm stuff.
Also clearing old bosses gears up your raid which makes the margin of error on new bosses alot bigger.
Even if you go all out progression and finally beat that boss, you'll find that your raid team is undergeared for heroic modes because you skipped the farm part.
Just set a few clear goals like thu and mon farm, sun and tue extended raids for progress or something.
Sindra was in the final instance of the expansion, and yeah we didnt' have the skill for it. However i firmly believe we have better raiders now.
Personally as a raider and not gm/raid leader, what i do not want to see is us having to do 'first kills' of t11 bosses after t12 is out, like we did in Ulduar. In Uduar we only had 1 hardmode done when ToGC came out and had to spend our raid weeks between 2 instances and never had time to focus on Anub, which we didnt' kill until ICC.
As a 4 day raid guild, you have to do a trade off, you either wanto to see all the content or you want learn every boss backwards from the word go, you won't achieve both.
As you can see from the last few raid weeks we have been getting in time on Atramedes & Chimareon to build our knowledge of them but not until we have made our progression goal.
Over the long run we will learn all the bosses properly but it will just take a bit longer than if we were to clear all of the existing bosses and then spend 0.5 raid night on new boss like we did when we were in ToGC and Anub.
I'm quite sure we can fit in the farming bosses within a day, max 2. Currently we talk about an old fight for like 5-10 mins even to assign things. We have to know before the raid starts what we need to assign, do that in 1 minute and be able to pull and kill the boss in 1 night.
In ICC for example, many guilds cleared all up to LK on heroic on 1 evening, killing all (farm) bosses and have the rest of the week for pure progression. If we reduce the slacking around in raids and move faster and more organised, we can achieve killing farm bosses and have a lot of progression time.
Trash dead, pull next trash and have some people drink up while the ones that dont need to continue. Mark up stuff with a simple macro and put 8 marks within 2 seconds. Boss fight; assign stuff, ready check and go. Only need a max of 15 seconds for buffing (including the 10 from the fish).
The goal of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his.
<3 Shii
Agreed titans but its not something we have ever managed to achieve. I have never understood how people take so long to buff. Everyone knows what buffs they need to check and so as soon as everyone is in range (simple raid frames will show this) hit your buffs and we are done. The problem is people expect others to do the work and it ends up taking 10mins instead of 10secs. A simple castsequence macro will do the job for you.
We have people that take ages to learn a fight, and even longer to get back and buffed...
Its only my "guild feeling" that keeps me from unsigning on "wipe nights", because after an evening of stupid wipes because people havent read up on tactics, I get annoyed. Its fair that we wipe because we are learning, but when we have 5-6- sometimes 10 wipes because people dont know tactics, ninjapull or whatever its just not cool anymore.
I know its harsh but its one of those things almost everyone is thinking and wondering, but noone dares to say... Progression is super, and I love it.. I dont mind wiping a week on the same boss, if its because the boss is hard, and not because we have people that are slow... And what annoys me the most is when we have tactics explained... in details... every time.. Expecially when its just one person new to the fight, because everyone SHOULD have read up on tactics, so no need to explain. Assign people to their job and possitions, and off we go. We already call out everything, and dont leave much thinking to the raider. (And almost always we have 3 people calling out the same thing, a probleme we have had before, and its now come back^^) We really need to clearify at the beginning of the raid WHO is leading, and that person assign whats being called out. If this person does not assign people to call stuff out, and doesnt call stuff out himself; Too bad raidleader have gotten exactly the same information as everyone else, people can use their eyes and brains just as much as the raidleader and have a look at the timers themselfs.
Thats what keeps me from really wanting "more progression nights" in Vigilantes, because I cant handle it, Ill simply get even more moody than I already am^^
Oh and BTW; Everyone can forget to buff, or run back slow, acedently ninjapull or mess up and wipe the raid... Shit happends.. Its only when the same person keeps shitting over the entire raid it becomes a probleme.
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
We all would like the Deathdealers but as i keep saying, its not possible.
If we want progression we have to accept that we won't clear everything each week, whilst we stick with 4 day raiding week.
Over time we will learn the bosses well enough to farm them, and be able to clear more each week but its going to be a slow process, if we want progression.
On the flip side, if you want to farm bosses, then you have to accept that progression will be slow/non-existant.
The question is are you guys happy to leave content unseen/unkilled, like we did with LK(H), Anub(H), Yogg-0, etc etc. I certainly am not. Ok we got the kills of Anub and Yogg but clearing when we were overgeared didn't feel anywhere near as satisfying as it would have done when it was current content.
If you look at my app for vigi, i said that I disappointed that my last guild didn't clear the end bosses of the content (did all bosses in SSC/TK/Hjyal but not the end boss), and i didn't want to see it happen again, and yet it has.
Wiping all night is painful, and doing it back to back over multiple nights is really painful, but its a learning process that we have to accept if we want to be a progression raiding guild.
However something we all need to get a lot better is learning from our mistakes, and feeding back information to the other raiders so they can also learn from your mistakes.
My answer to that question would be; Id happyly go back and do the stuff when overgeared, because I doubt Ill stay as raider in this guild if we set the goal to be more hardcore progression with the current team
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
stop threatening already Shii, its getting a bit sad
Officers make a plan, they even ask the raiders for "permission", what more could you ask?
If you say it's so easy to raid lead and to prepare all in advance, why didnt you try it yourself?
we have a team, all we gotta figure out is how to make the most of it. Middleway in my opinion would be yes go for progression, but on those days ( especially if its one of those days) take like an hour per raid to clear other content bosses to spread it out fairly even over the week.
Im not threatening? Im saying I probably would lose interest in raiding if we wipe too much cause of stupid stuff.. Thats not a threat thats a pure fact, because I just dont enjoy being annoyed... If they ask peoples opinion, they should be willing to hear, also the negative ones.. I know this guild looks bad at people when they say their negative opinion, and I can understand with comments like yours Halk.
And Ill have you know for 4-5 months Ive been asking to step up, but they currently do not need more people from the 25man team in raidcounsil.
Ive been a raidleader before, only for a 10man group, and as you would have notice in Wotlk I did run alt-runs, but near the end of wotlk noone signed for the raids, and it stopped.
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
Halk, she's hardly threatening. She's merely voicing her concerns and opinions, something which she is entitled to do, and I'd say encouraged to do within this thread.
OT: As others have said, we waste too much time explaining an entire fight for one person, too much time is spent buffed, and too much time is spent assigning roles.
I also don't think going full progression is genuinely the best route forward with the current team we have. Yes, we are a good bunch of players, but we (certain people) do consistently fuck up on basic things. Screwing up is all part of the learning curve, and it's beneficial to screw up once or twice or something, simply because you _should_ learn that doing it again is gonna be painful and waste time.
These are things I feel are holding us back from being able to go full progression, but also stop us farming bosses quickly and effectively. Something which we definitely need to adjust and fix.
Edit: Loot may just be a tool for getting there, but it's an important tool which can't be ignored.
And Ill have you know for 4-5 months Ive been asking to step up, but they currently do not need more people from the 25man team in raidcounsil.
Ive been a raidleader before, only for a 10man group, and as you would have notice in Wotlk I did run alt-runs, but near the end of wotlk noone signed for the raids, and it stopped.
Great.. and we'd get a RL that quits a raid in a strop when things aren't perfect for her. Hurrah for the common sense of the guild council.
I don't think anyone is suggesting we are ignoring bosses, merely saying that a balance between progression and farming is favorable to most; which is kind of what we are currently doing.
Comments
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 18:45
I voted 'Yes - happy to focus on pure progression'. However, I would hope this does include killing an acceptable amount of bosses each week to keep gearing ourselves up etc. Whilst we are generally doing that now, it might change once we start progressing on heroics and the appeal of normals goes down.
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 18:47
Farming = Boring
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 18:48
Not voting because I think we should be aiming for something between the two. I think we're missing a trick not re-visiting the likes of Chogul that we have killed and adding some Tier Items.
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 18:51
Ofcourse gear is a requirement and makes it easier to progress. Seeing we're currently not far off and we basically wipe due to stupid mistakes, rather than gear, I'd aim for full progress.
The goal of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his.
<3 Shii
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 18:52
I'm completely all for full progress, but I personally don't feel that everyone is geared to a suitable level to progress at nice pace.
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 18:58
Whilst i ve voted for progression...I feel a balance is necessary...in reality i think we only have 3 or 4 farm bosses, further kills of the others remain progression ie cho'gall, council, atramedes
Baalz
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 19:13
You can't get progression without sufficient farming of previous bosses. As long as you don't get stuck on those farming bosses ofc.
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 19:31
Most of you voted down a 5th day, and you have seen what we have been doing in regards to progression focus.
With the limited raid hours we have, its a straight choice between the 2, you can't have it both ways.
Its either the current system of focusing on progression and getting a few kills on the side or clearing what we have done and getting progression over the long long term, because we dont' have the time to focus on new bosses (if we cleared all the bosses we have already killed each week, we would probably have time for 1 night a week, if that to look at a new boss).
As for being undergeared, that is clearly not true. The only gear you need for the content we are working on is items from 5man heroics. The reason we are wiping on bosses is because people messing up, not becasue of gear. Gear will help smooth over the cracks but won't solve them.
@ Mon, 07/02/2011 - 10:48
I have voted against it.. I will not like a raid week with "pure progression" although this is my personal main goal, I will not enjoy it if it was filling 3½ out of 4 raid evenings.
EDIT; After the question was changed to be what was really intended, my vote ofc changes to a yes, I would support the guild as it is currently progressing, I like the Vigi style, dont see any reason to change and try and push more (or less)
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 21:40
Thats not what we are doing shii. We are probably spending 2.5-3 on progress and rest on killing old bosses. I an asking if you guys are happy with how we are currently raiding.
@ Fri, 04/02/2011 - 21:48
Updated question to make that more clear
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 03:27
I would ofcourse like us to continue focusing on the progress...but also kill the other bosses please.
I am guessing quite a few raiders including me on certain bosses have not killed or had enough practice to call them on farm bosses ---> Atramedes , the ascendant council Cho'gall.....etc
So it would be progess if all the raiders had practice..kills on these bosses?
please correct me if i am wrong
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 07:06
Well to call a boss a "farm boss" is in many ways a definetion of the word "progression".
Farmable bosses is bosses (in my opinion) we can go in and do and a large numbers(20+) of raiders are comftable in the fight and the mechanics. This is for example Magmaw or Omnitron. Just because we have killed a boss does not mean its on farm. (Go back and see with Sindragosa HC, in my opinion we never reeeeally got that on "farm").
Well this means we can go in, do a fight without wiping more than to "bad luck" (You can wipe on the easiets fights, so ofc. you can also wipe on farmable bosses).
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 11:05
2.5-3 days on progression means 2.5-3 days of non stop wiping, this will wear down even the most hardened raider. You really need a balance between mastering older stuff and getting practice out on new stuff. In the past Vigi used extended raids for new bosses (the sunday extended raids are a leftover from this). We did extended raids for new bosses and normal shorter ones for farm stuff.
Also clearing old bosses gears up your raid which makes the margin of error on new bosses alot bigger.
Even if you go all out progression and finally beat that boss, you'll find that your raid team is undergeared for heroic modes because you skipped the farm part.
Just set a few clear goals like thu and mon farm, sun and tue extended raids for progress or something.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 13:45
Sindra was in the final instance of the expansion, and yeah we didnt' have the skill for it. However i firmly believe we have better raiders now.
Personally as a raider and not gm/raid leader, what i do not want to see is us having to do 'first kills' of t11 bosses after t12 is out, like we did in Ulduar. In Uduar we only had 1 hardmode done when ToGC came out and had to spend our raid weeks between 2 instances and never had time to focus on Anub, which we didnt' kill until ICC.
As a 4 day raid guild, you have to do a trade off, you either wanto to see all the content or you want learn every boss backwards from the word go, you won't achieve both.
As you can see from the last few raid weeks we have been getting in time on Atramedes & Chimareon to build our knowledge of them but not until we have made our progression goal.
Over the long run we will learn all the bosses properly but it will just take a bit longer than if we were to clear all of the existing bosses and then spend 0.5 raid night on new boss like we did when we were in ToGC and Anub.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 13:55
I'm quite sure we can fit in the farming bosses within a day, max 2. Currently we talk about an old fight for like 5-10 mins even to assign things. We have to know before the raid starts what we need to assign, do that in 1 minute and be able to pull and kill the boss in 1 night.
In ICC for example, many guilds cleared all up to LK on heroic on 1 evening, killing all (farm) bosses and have the rest of the week for pure progression. If we reduce the slacking around in raids and move faster and more organised, we can achieve killing farm bosses and have a lot of progression time.
Trash dead, pull next trash and have some people drink up while the ones that dont need to continue. Mark up stuff with a simple macro and put 8 marks within 2 seconds. Boss fight; assign stuff, ready check and go. Only need a max of 15 seconds for buffing (including the 10 from the fish).
The goal of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his.
<3 Shii
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 14:09
Agreed titans but its not something we have ever managed to achieve. I have never understood how people take so long to buff. Everyone knows what buffs they need to check and so as soon as everyone is in range (simple raid frames will show this) hit your buffs and we are done. The problem is people expect others to do the work and it ends up taking 10mins instead of 10secs. A simple castsequence macro will do the job for you.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 14:26
But that is exactly the problemes...
We have people that take ages to learn a fight, and even longer to get back and buffed...
Its only my "guild feeling" that keeps me from unsigning on "wipe nights", because after an evening of stupid wipes because people havent read up on tactics, I get annoyed. Its fair that we wipe because we are learning, but when we have 5-6- sometimes 10 wipes because people dont know tactics, ninjapull or whatever its just not cool anymore.
I know its harsh but its one of those things almost everyone is thinking and wondering, but noone dares to say... Progression is super, and I love it.. I dont mind wiping a week on the same boss, if its because the boss is hard, and not because we have people that are slow... And what annoys me the most is when we have tactics explained... in details... every time.. Expecially when its just one person new to the fight, because everyone SHOULD have read up on tactics, so no need to explain. Assign people to their job and possitions, and off we go. We already call out everything, and dont leave much thinking to the raider. (And almost always we have 3 people calling out the same thing, a probleme we have had before, and its now come back^^) We really need to clearify at the beginning of the raid WHO is leading, and that person assign whats being called out. If this person does not assign people to call stuff out, and doesnt call stuff out himself; Too bad raidleader have gotten exactly the same information as everyone else, people can use their eyes and brains just as much as the raidleader and have a look at the timers themselfs.
Thats what keeps me from really wanting "more progression nights" in Vigilantes, because I cant handle it, Ill simply get even more moody than I already am^^
Oh and BTW; Everyone can forget to buff, or run back slow, acedently ninjapull or mess up and wipe the raid... Shit happends.. Its only when the same person keeps shitting over the entire raid it becomes a probleme.
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 14:59
I would like a mix of both dont mind wipeing all night but dont like to leave a "farm boss " up
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 16:13
We all would like the Deathdealers but as i keep saying, its not possible.
If we want progression we have to accept that we won't clear everything each week, whilst we stick with 4 day raiding week.
Over time we will learn the bosses well enough to farm them, and be able to clear more each week but its going to be a slow process, if we want progression.
On the flip side, if you want to farm bosses, then you have to accept that progression will be slow/non-existant.
The question is are you guys happy to leave content unseen/unkilled, like we did with LK(H), Anub(H), Yogg-0, etc etc. I certainly am not. Ok we got the kills of Anub and Yogg but clearing when we were overgeared didn't feel anywhere near as satisfying as it would have done when it was current content.
If you look at my app for vigi, i said that I disappointed that my last guild didn't clear the end bosses of the content (did all bosses in SSC/TK/Hjyal but not the end boss), and i didn't want to see it happen again, and yet it has.
Wiping all night is painful, and doing it back to back over multiple nights is really painful, but its a learning process that we have to accept if we want to be a progression raiding guild.
However something we all need to get a lot better is learning from our mistakes, and feeding back information to the other raiders so they can also learn from your mistakes.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 18:30
My answer to that question would be; Id happyly go back and do the stuff when overgeared, because I doubt Ill stay as raider in this guild if we set the goal to be more hardcore progression with the current team
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 19:11
stop threatening already Shii, its getting a bit sad
Officers make a plan, they even ask the raiders for "permission", what more could you ask?
If you say it's so easy to raid lead and to prepare all in advance, why didnt you try it yourself?
we have a team, all we gotta figure out is how to make the most of it. Middleway in my opinion would be yes go for progression, but on those days ( especially if its one of those days) take like an hour per raid to clear other content bosses to spread it out fairly even over the week.
regards
Halk
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:02
Im not threatening? Im saying I probably would lose interest in raiding if we wipe too much cause of stupid stuff.. Thats not a threat thats a pure fact, because I just dont enjoy being annoyed... If they ask peoples opinion, they should be willing to hear, also the negative ones.. I know this guild looks bad at people when they say their negative opinion, and I can understand with comments like yours Halk.
And Ill have you know for 4-5 months Ive been asking to step up, but they currently do not need more people from the 25man team in raidcounsil.
Ive been a raidleader before, only for a 10man group, and as you would have notice in Wotlk I did run alt-runs, but near the end of wotlk noone signed for the raids, and it stopped.
Titansruler <3<3<3 & Nekster <3
“I'm not concerned with your liking or disliking me... All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.” - Jackie Robinson
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:03
This game is about killing and experience content, not about looting.
Loot is just a tool to get there
A man is but the product of his thoughts.
What he thinks, he becomes.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:09
Halk, she's hardly threatening. She's merely voicing her concerns and opinions, something which she is entitled to do, and I'd say encouraged to do within this thread.
OT: As others have said, we waste too much time explaining an entire fight for one person, too much time is spent buffed, and too much time is spent assigning roles.
I also don't think going full progression is genuinely the best route forward with the current team we have. Yes, we are a good bunch of players, but we (certain people) do consistently fuck up on basic things. Screwing up is all part of the learning curve, and it's beneficial to screw up once or twice or something, simply because you _should_ learn that doing it again is gonna be painful and waste time.
These are things I feel are holding us back from being able to go full progression, but also stop us farming bosses quickly and effectively. Something which we definitely need to adjust and fix.
Edit: Loot may just be a tool for getting there, but it's an important tool which can't be ignored.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:09
Ive been a raidleader before, only for a 10man group, and as you would have notice in Wotlk I did run alt-runs, but near the end of wotlk noone signed for the raids, and it stopped.
Great.. and we'd get a RL that quits a raid in a strop when things aren't perfect for her. Hurrah for the common sense of the guild council.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:11
Having digs at people isn't what this thread was made for Aayala. Try to post something on-topic and constructive.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:13
I would add that we have been clearing old content each week.
Last week for example we spent a lot of time on Al'Akir, but we also killed
Magmaw
Omnitron Defense System
Maloriak
Atramedes
Chimareon
Halfus Wyrmbreaker
Conclave of Wind
Its not like we are completely ignoring the other bosses.
@ Sat, 05/02/2011 - 20:17
I don't think anyone is suggesting we are ignoring bosses, merely saying that a balance between progression and farming is favorable to most; which is kind of what we are currently doing.